Thread: Pornography

I think what tovlakas said makes a lot of sense, it is not reality, and as long as people understand that, there is no problem. I think the issue is not the porn itself, but the attitude of those who watch it. Tovy is obviously an intelligent and decent guy, and knows that porn has a specific purpose, but is not meant for real life situations. At least that is what I gathered.

For me, having not had sex, I do look at a lot of porn, but at the same time I don't like it. It is kind of a neccessary evil at the moment.

Also, I would like to add that the mainstream pornos (vivid etc) aren't the best judge of the entire industry, they seem to take themselves too seriously. Short videos off the net, often of poor quality, are just there to "get off" usually, and are not meant to be analysed or watched for any other purpose. In saying that, amateur porn is probably the best, because there is actually some emotional connection.

Hang on JUST a minute here. Don't most male pornstars start out in gay porn? If that is indeed the case (and not just an urban myth that one you will no doubt gleefully wave in my face at a later date), then the same males who are degrading, bullying, victimising and raping, have also been degraded, bullied, victimised and raped. Is there any kind of complaint about the degradation of men in gay porn? No. Why? Because we're evidently all feeling far too like the 'empowered female'.

Zip, what do you think porn does to guys with small cocks? Does it make them feel good about themselves to see a girl screaming 'Harder, deeper, it feels so good when you fuck me with your HUGE cock,' or does it make them feel pretty insecure? Could it be part of the reason why so many teenage boys feel the need to come here, to this very site, and ask of us all 'is my dick big enough?'

Equally, there are many female pornstars who I'd be too scared to fuck, because they're SO demanding of the men, which can be viewed as an extreme form of empowerment. In a gangbang situation, admittedly the guys 'use' the girl, 'degrade' her or whatever, but who's eventually left holding the trump card? Is it the man who's left quivering and kissing the girl, barely able to speak let alone penetrate her anymore now that his sack's empty, or is it the unsatisfied girl who pushes him aside, and goes and eagerly gets another filling from someone else?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I think what tovlakas said makes a lot of sense, it is not reality, and as long as people understand that, there is no problem. I think the issue is not the porn itself, but the attitude of those who watch it. Tovy is obviously an intelligent and decent guy, and knows that porn has a specific purpose, but is not meant for real life situations. At least that is what I gathered.[/b]

You know, most people don&#39;t like to admit that they&#39;re influenced by commercials or advertisements, either. But people still buy SUVs they don&#39;t need. They still buy Prada bags they don&#39;t need. Brand names over generics. McDonald&#39;s is ingrained into skulls. But people still say they aren&#39;t influenced by capitalism and make choices for themselves. I know I&#39;m staunchly anti-capitalist, but I&#39;m still fighting off ingrained messages I have received for years now.

So it&#39;s not very difficult for me to believe the messages of pornography can still be received and filed in the viewer&#39;s subconscious no matter how well he thinks he treats and appreciates women.

I would have to agree with Zip here. Porn sends out the wrong message about sex, a horrible message if you ask me. But in a society that is so completely obsessed with sex how could porn not be what it is. Porn today is a product of what our society has become.

I still have to laugh sometimes though when I think about capitalism. Where else in the world would someone pay 40 dollars for a t-shirt or a jacket with the name of the company on it and then walk around and advertise for that company.

I think that perhaps the majority of people (at least those with a modcom of intelligence or common sense) realise that pornography is not a "begginers guide to sex". How many women have actually had sex with someone who went on about yuo being a "dirty slut" or putting his dick where you don&#39;t want it?
This to me is evident in the way porn is distributed and viewed;
- Young guys tend not to watch porn with each other (part homophobia, part realising that it is not acceptable)
- Young guys have to use the internet because they don&#39;t want to be found buying porn from places because of what people would think if they found out.
- people go to some real effort to hide porn, tapingit behind radiators, put into slices into mattresses. Even people not living in a situation where they are likely to have their stash discovered.

are these the actions of people proud to be partaking of a skin flick?

Now, I understand that there are things in Pron that are to be frank, disgusting. I&#39;ve seen some shit I wish I&#39;d never seen, and wonder why the hell anyone would willingly do this. However, the continuing production of pornographic films sasy that there are people who do this for a livng and probably enjoy it; if they didn&#39;t do this they would quit, same as anyone.

Plus, if it weren&#39;t for porn we&#39;d 2000 13 year olds a week up on clock towers with an UZI out of sheer sexual frustration...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I think what tovlakas said makes a lot of sense, it is not reality, and as long as people understand that, there is no problem. I think the issue is not the porn itself, but the attitude of those who watch it.[/b]

Yeah, that&#39;s very true Bender. But what I was trying to say in my post was that with the easy availability of so much harcore (and I mean hardcore, not when some mainstream site puts the word there to get a few hits) porn, to a younger and younger audience, don&#39;t you think that it desensitizes people not &#39;mature&#39; (although thats the wrong word, I can&#39;t think of a better one) enough to fully appreciate the &#39;fantasy&#39; nature of whats happening in front of them?

In my opinion, it leads to not being able to get aroused, except by more and more gratuitous and unrealistic (perhaps even violent) sexual scenarios. And thats when the trouble starts. Because much pornogaphy is inherrently violent. This has always been the case, I don&#39;t refute that. It just more accessible earlier and earlier now.

Ugh, I had a good post, but it got eaten somehow.

Retro, your post was really spectacular, framing the debate in a new way I&#39;d never really considered. Porn affects the way women view themselves and affects what they think of as sexy. That&#39;s kind of a disturbing thought. I guess I kind of realized it before (really, do you think girls gone wild is anything more than women desperate for validation, would they be kissing each other if the cameras weren&#39;t there?), but not to such a broad degree.

What you&#39;re missing is what role porn plays. Phill talks about sexual frustration. Frustration is a good word, but who are men frustrated at? Women. Men view women as the gatekeepers of validation, and often feel that women capriciously and arbitrarily dole out their affection. This leads to frustration, leads to anger, leads to violent porn. The guys who watch this are play-acting revenge fantasies. They guys in these pornose always have huge dicks and it&#39;s almost as much about causing pain as it is about causing pleasure. Degradation and consideration become almost interchangable.

Studies show that porn by itself does not affect men&#39;s opinions of women at all. But violent porn negatively affects men&#39;s views of women. It&#39;s actually damaging your ability to relate to women to consume this product. It&#39;s really scary when you think about it that way. And I can verify that watching this stuff does start to warp your mind a little. So much of the porn on the internet is violent, is about the facial, is about men asserting their primal dominance over women. Wtf is gagging? I almost cried the first time I saw that shit. What is that except acting out anger? Of course, I was more disturbed to see that I was turned on by it. Where did that come from? Why is that arousing?

Why is B&D such a turn-on, spanking, handcuffs, hair-pulling, rough sex, why is playing with power and sex the ultimate excitement. These ideas are becoming mainstream, it&#39;s not in the shadows anymore. Most women will admit they like it rough every now and then. Every once in a while, it&#39;s a real turn on to be degraded.

The more I think about this.... this is about more than just porn. This is about our whole society not knowing which way is up anymore. This has been brewing for the last 30 years, from the time the first woman burned her bra. It&#39;s been brewing since the dawn of agriculture, when men acted out their anger at women for controlling life by theorizing that it was man who was actually essential to conception, and the women were merely fields into which the men were sowing their seed.

There has always been tension and anger between the sexes. Power imbalances. This new wave of violent porn is just one last manifestation of the anger men have towards women. What method are women using to return their anger at men?

Excellent point, Spike.

Could one then relate the increasing content of violent porn on the internet to that of women gaining more power in today&#39;s society.

This reminds me of the movie, The Stepford wives I saw a few weeks ago.
If you&#39;re unfamiliar with the movie, these men wanted to basically create "trophy" wives that did everything they were "supposed to" in order to please a man. The main strategy to do this was to put microchips into their brains so they would then automatically do nothing but please their husbands. Among the many duties of the perfect wife, a perfect sex life was obviously incorporated.
What consisted of this "perfect sex life"? Not much was explained, but one could assume that it could be directly related to the porn industry today.
But the thing that remind me of it was the standpoint of the men involved. They were not as powerful as their wives.
As Matthew Broderick&#39;s character put it: "You&#39;ve always been better at me in everything."

One can see then, why recently men have become so interested in the porn industry as a validation of their dominance. And what better way of asserting dominance than jabbing your penis into orafices and humiliating a woman?

The main problem is, though, the women that still facilitate this by doing what Retro stated: surrending their pride to "feel better" about themselves.

I think the glass ceiling validates our dominance more then the porn industry.

The problem, Mav, is that we&#39;re all in this society together and are all struggling with the same difficult questions. That&#39;s why women and men are drawn to the same kinds of play-acting. Like I said before, a LOT of girls get off on being spanked and having rough sex. This isn&#39;t about the porn industry, this is a society-wide issue where people are getting off on playing with sex and power. (Is this really new? The Marquis de Sade lived 300 years ago) But where does that come from? Why is it more openly accepted now? Is porn imitating life or is life imitating porn?I think it&#39;s the former, honestly. Porn isn&#39;t showing us new things, it&#39;s showing us what we can&#39;t always find someone to comply with. Or it&#39;s showing us things we want to do but can&#39;t do to the mother of our children.

And porn is ultimately safe sex. That&#39;s something else to consider. Even if I were to find a girl that was into the kind of sex in those pornos (it wouldn&#39;t be that hard), would I want to? Risking disease, pregnancy, etc., just to act out impulses I&#39;m not exactly proud of anyway?

I sort of have two points. The first is that this is nothing new. Men and women have been struggling to reconcile the power difference between them for millennia. Zip, don&#39;t go thinking that we&#39;re living in a dark time for relations between men and women. This is the golden age. I&#39;m assuming you&#39;ve read enough history of gender relations to know that no matter how many facials women receive in pornos, things are still better for women than they ever have been since the dawn of agriculture.

The second point is that the reason this specific incarnation of oppression of women exists right now and is also being embraced by many, many women (like I said, LOTS of girls like rough sex), is because it&#39;s a caricature of the way gender relations used to be in a time when "the world made more sense." Women and men yearn for a time when they knew what to do, when men dominated and women were dominated. This new movement is an attempt to restore that order in a way that doesn&#39;t actually affect anything. Most women would be far more offended if you wanted to take away their right to vote than if you wanted to gag them with your 9" dick. The latter, precisely because it is so irrelevant, is empowering in a strange way.

That&#39;s my take.

Originally posted by Devious+Jul 20 2004, 02:41 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Devious @ Jul 20 2004, 02:41 PM)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Maverick

men have become so interested in the porn industry as a validation of their dominance.

I&#39;d like to find words to respond to this with... but I can only shake my head, no words are coming to me.
<div align="right"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
[/b]

Maybe you misunderstood.
How about clarifying what you mean, so I can do the same

Let&#39;s change it to &#39;validate their ego"

Most men like to feel dominant, it&#39;s in their nature. Thus, when a men feel submissive to women, they feel as though they&#39;re less worthy.

It&#39;s why men hate being called "pussy-whipped"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Implying that men are already dominant, they just need to see something that shows women as submissive in order to reinforce it, to prove it.[/b]

It&#39;s the truth isn&#39;t it?