Thread: Medicating Kids...

I found that to be a very very cynical piece of television that did no justice whatsoever to parents who have to look after children who display challenging behaviour. Louis Theroux makes good telly, but it annoys me no end how far he will go to fuck people over and make them look stupid in order to make himself look clever.

That said, the dog being medicated was a highlight.

Actually on topic; i do agree with you to a certain degree, I think the medication culture is pretty out of control in the states (in my experience you don't find the same levels in the UK, I don't know about anywhere else). Buuut. I've worked with several kids who medication does a lot of good for, That kid with Asbergers reminded me a lot of someone I was a ta for, and I know he refused to take his medication for a while and ended up lamping a teacher, and he was gratful for medication that allowed him to continue in mainstream school. The kid I was keyworker for went fucking nuts when he didnt take his medication, made my life hell for 6 months. and i reckon medication stopped him being taken away from his parents. and meant he was calm enough to go to therapy etc.

I think it's a very difficult topic to be judgemental about if you haven't really experienced challenging behaviour. I do it 40 hours a week and i'm pretty much incapable of talking at the end of every shift, i can totally understand why parents who do it 24/7 with someone they love will consider medication. (For themselves included)

But there is a limit. obviously.

I think medicating kids should be a last resort. I worked with a 7 year old boy who had ODD, and his mom tried everything at first, she gave us a list of anger management techniques to work with, she hired a private aid, brought him to counsellors and anger management courses. All of these things helped to a certain degree, actually they helped with everything except his sleep, so she had to put him on sleeping pills. But she didn't like the effects of them, so she started only giving him half a one. In this case, I don't think she was wrong to medicate him, because it is actually helping him and she is doing everything else she can.
For those parents who just go "my kids out of control, let's drug him", that is unbelievabley wrong. I get some people need help, but I think allowing the child to try and work through it first with alternative methods to drugging first.

There's certainly a very fine line here. Atom, as usual you made some very well considered points and I wouldn't disagree with anything you've said whatsoever. Whilst I am still very uncomfortable with the idea, I do get that there are times when medication is neccessary in one form or another. But I'm not sure I would want to medicate my own child if it was a matter of keeping them in a regular school - although obviously if I was ever faced with such a choice, I'd put a lot more thought into it then I would into a thought exercise.

I think perhaps it's the perception of 'illness' which urks me. Especially when many 'conditions' are groups of symptoms rather than recognised illnesses caused by genetics, bacteria, viruses or whatever. And there's the problem that the people who are being medicated are children who in many cases still have a long way to go in terms of growing up both physically and mentally and I'm not sure that being treated like a patient is going to bode too well for them in adulthood. Another part of my problem with the whole phenomenon is that I know 100% that I could've been diagnosed with one of those conditions when I was a nipper. I acted just like some of those kids and it scares me to think I could've been put on medication because of it when my own issues faded over time (though I'm not holding myself up as an example of 'the norm' or whatever).

The big problem in the states is that medicating kids pays a lot of money! And whenever there's a profit to be mined you can be sure there are people prospecting all over the place! This has obviously helped to fuel a sort of 'medication culture' where you do have things like every member of a family (and their dogs) taking drugs for various problems and where medication and medicalisation becomes a very early step for a lot of people. It's seems as though there are children who might very well need to take something to help them concentrate but then in order for them to receive that something, a medical condition has to be defined. Once that's been done then it becomes a lot easier to pin somebody else's problems on - especially due to the relatively inexact science of psychiatry (compared to physiological medicine) and the whole thing snowballs. You end up in this crazy situation where people are essentially taking drugs for things like 'hating their job' (I'm not just talking about your average 'I can't be fucked going in today' kinda person though). Now, hating your job can be dressed up in different ways of course but I have no doubt that certain anxiety disorders could be solved with a change of lifestyle. As I've said before, I think that modern life is the pathogen for a lot of modern mental disorders.

Gah, I've probably rambled really badly but hey, it'sthe internet. One of the things I'm trying to get at is that medication for mental disorders like ADHD or whatever is something to help people cope, not to cure them. We are creatures who have been designed to live outside, move about a lot and survive in close-knit social groups. Modern society keeps us indoors as much as possible, keeps us in the same place and as such, our personal social lives and development take a hit. I would absolutely LOVE to do a study on the prevelance of mental disorders like ADHD, OCD etc... in different parts of the world and I would love to go more in-depth and see what sort of lifestyles these kids have lead up to their diagnoses. For example, are these disorders more prevalant in say, households with TVs or in single-parent households, or homes where both parents work full-time? Is it a bigger problem in rural or urban areas and is it something that only seems to occur in more developed nations? I think these sorts of questions are very important because the more we look at ways to cope with people's problems, we may be ignoring the reasons for those problems occuring in the first place. And that probably gets to the root of my problem. We're starting with the assumption that this is any kind of normal life at all and we look at ways to adapt people to this life rather than the other way around. It's probably a flimsy example but look at Sex Addiction (just as an illustrative device). It's simply not a problem in societies where you can get away with being a true Alpha Male. If you're the dude at the top of the pyramid then fill your boots mate. There are plenty of cultures which encourage polygamy and multiple-partners and I'm willing to wager that nobody from any of those cultures has never ended up in rehab! But when sex with multiple partners and indulging in your desires is frowned upon people do end up in rehab and they end up talking about their 'illness'.

Edit: oh, and Blue, I put 'therapy' in inverted commas because I was thinking less of sitting down with a psychiatrist-style therapy than sort of 'behavioural coaching'. But like, I didn't describe that whatsoever obviously.

Originally Posted by Brewtality

I think perhaps it's the perception of 'illness' which urks me. Especially when many 'conditions' are groups of symptoms rather than recognised illnesses caused by genetics, bacteria, viruses or whatever.

That is a really tricky one, often the only way to discover a genetic condition (Autistic Spectrum Conditions, Schizophrenia ADHD are all currently considered genetic, and i know for ASC and ADHD the current thinking is that the only way to cure this 'illness' is gene therapy to a level far far beyond anything plausibly acheivable in the near future) is by observing a group of symptoms over time. Autism is a combination of regression in communication, social ability and flexibilty of thought, but no one would deny that it exists, and at the same time, it's so complex that no two people on the autistic spectrum will ever display exactly the same symptoms. So is it a disease? Should people be treated for it?

We've got a case study at work that everyone is supposed to read (i'm pretty certain it is true) about a guy who was struggling to get recognised as autistic, and eventually due to acting weirdly, ended up being carted from mental institution to mental institution being treated brutally (this was in the 60's when that meant actually brutally) when if his condition could have been recognised earlier, he could have lead a really full life.

I'm not arguing with you at all, it's just something that takes up a large portion of my life, and i enjoy talking about it.

Ive been on med's for about three years now. Various anti psychotic's, anti depressants and 'chill pills'. Ive tried numerous ones, to the point now where i couldnt tell you how many ive tried. I know that i suffer from servere bouts of depression, i suffer from intense anxiety and panick attacks and have done since i was a kid. Like...5 years old. I been in and out of therapy..and in hospital a few times.

I watched that program yesterday. The first thing that struck me about the people and the kids he was interviewing were just how completely dysfunctional they were.

Nuerotic parents pass their neurosis onto their kids. I believe that.
Various 'Mr and Mrs clever pants' aka doctors fueling a kids parents
neurosis about how theyre kid is f'd up in the head probably isnt going to help the situation. Notice the crazed looks in those mothers eyes? That kind of glassy wide eyed staring?

That one kid who was on citalopram was like a robot. It's like he'd had a labotomy. Which isnt exactly suprising considering the cocktail of medication he was on. Citalopram? + an anti psychotic? + whatever else the fuck he was on?. That shit will fuck you up..........That kid was what..10?

Im aware different people react differntly to different meds... but these are children..... In other words they arnt fully developed adults mentaly or pysically.

Ive been on citalopram. That shit is mong juice. They say that kid had ADHD or some shit? Give that kid enough citalopram and he wont be ADHD for long. Believe it. That shit will fuck you up.

Not to mention, different drug combinations react differntly.
In order for a doctor to know how the drug is affecting you. You need to be able to express how its affecting you. I have a sneeeeeky suspicion that alot of those kids arnt going to be able to do that. Since for one thing theyre so young. And having a parent describe to a doctor on the 'patient's'... i mean childs behalf is fine to an extent but for one its subjective to observer... (Possibly a nuerotic parent, who maybe a lil bias? i.e maybe wants to keep them on meds because 'i like her better when shes medicated than when shes not')

2. The outside observer only sees a subjective outside maniphestation of the 'patients' inner condition.

To even maybe be able to have an understanding of whats going on in the kids mind (which of course is the point of the whole thing), they need to at least be able to communicate whats going on in their mind in a clear precise way....which i would wager alot of those kids are not able to do. (For one maybe because theyre so fucked up on the meds in the first place...Dun Dun DUNNNNNNN).

SIDE NOTE: Id be curious to see just how it is that they assess the kids in order to diagnose them. They didnt include that in the film. Which isnt suprising since i assume that would involve more personal delving.

The idea of pumping young developing kids with highly powerfull man made, manufactured drugs is fucking retarded. The parents say they tried 'everything they could' but the kid wont change. So 'He must be tapped!'
Umm..ok, maybe the kid has some tendencies...but umm.. how about try a diet change? Take care of your own 'issues'?, change your parenting apraoch? and umm...maybe he doesnt need ALL those fucking meds?.

I found the whole getting sent to take a shower incident was telling. The mum and the kid having a battle of wills over the kid taking a morning shower? She put that down partly to his condition?
What. The. Fuck.
I remember seeing my sister throw a HECK of alot worse fits and trantrums as a kid about far more retarded shit than that. My parents didnt put it down to any psycho babble bullshit.
How about......'ok fine, dont take a shower'.

You want your kid to grow up to be a normal healthy adult?. Maybe try and quit patronising them day in day out and acting around them like theyre 'different'. Maybe work on your c o m m u n i c a t i o n skills as a family.

Notice how the kids younger sister was blatantly pissed that her bro was the centre of attention all the time?
Yeh. Not a good sign for the future.
I wouldnt be suprised if she grows up to be a lil resentfull...maybe spawing a shit lot more issues for those parents when shes an adolescent. Probablly a heck of alot worse than the greif their son is causing them at the moment.

In conclusion. Having been a 'head case' since i can remember. Do i wish i had been put on meds earlier?
Fuck no. For one thing meds cause both psycological and physiological dependancy. Yeh, even the new s00per atypical magick pills. Any doctor who tells you different is lying to you. Actually, theyre probably just ignorant.

I could go on, i might have missed some shit. But i think thats enough. If i think of anything else ill be sure to post it. 'Psychobabble bullshit' is something that hits a nerve with me. Particularly when it comes to kids.

And seconded on the whole where theres a market shit...

Originally Posted by Blue

It's definitely never black and white, but the DSM is improving all the time.

Indeed it is. Did I ever link you to that interview with Robert Spitzer who was in charge of putting together DSM-III where he agrees with the interviewers assertion that they medicalised a bunch of normal human emotional responses to the world?

I don't believe that we were 'designed' in any particular way.

Well, we have evolved to fill a particular niche. And that niche has nothing to do with 9-5 jobs, money etc...

I think there are more than enough avenues to be 'social' in modern society if one wishes, and we don't all have to be running through forests and dancing round a fire to feel like healthy, socially fulfilled creatures. Most children are put through nursery and school - more than enough opportunities to develop social skills. And there's probably more opportunity now than ever - especially in the work place - to make social connections. I don't really see what the problem is?

Yet at the same time we're constantly being told of how horrible the world is that we should be afraid of this and that. And we generally get told this by the screen in the corner of the room which we (as a people) seem to spend more time with than we do with other people. In Britain 50 years ago, you would know half of the people who lived on your street. Now you might know your neighbours and that's about it for most people. There's no way that TV isn't at least partly to blame for that. To be honest, I wouldn't be suprised if TV was a major factor in a lot of mental issues y'know.

Also what do you mean by 'keeps us in the same place'? Do you mean location? Because I don't see why groups of people would move from one place to another if there were enough resources. Isn't a lack of resources the only reason why people move?

Well I really meant inactivity. But obviously humans were until relatively recently (and still are in some parts of the world) a migratory species.

In some parts of the world children are left to fend for themselves at an extremely young age and if they die, tough shit. Parenting instincts are almost non-existent in that culture, which seems quite bizarre as protecting your children is one of the most fundamental, innate behaviours that you see almost universally, but that's just how it is in that part of the world. Saying 'look at society X. They don't care so why do we?' isn't a very convincing argument.

That's not the point I was making. What I was getting to is that what can be normal behaviour in one culture can actually be considered a medical condition in another. And we HAVE to always be aware of our own cultural position because otherwise we get too blinkered in our views.

Also, I'm thinking that certain famous figures who openly admit a 'sex addiction' hold motives other than wanting to 'get better'. If a person's desire for sex makes them genuinely unhappy, however, then it starts to fall more in the category of something like OCD - where they desperately want to perform a particular set of actions (as one example) but they still feel out of control and deeply unhappy. Performing those actions doesn't satisfy them, and people with sex addiction seem to feel similarly.

Mmmhmm. Is that not more of a behavioural issue than a medical one though? If I went out tomorrow and got some special burger somewhere which was the best burger I ever tasted, so I went out the next day, and the next day and so on and kept on eating the burgers until I became so fat that I couldn't move would that be a behavioural or a medical problem? If sex addiction can be compared to OCD then is obesity then not something of a mental health problem?

I understand your point though, that certain behaviours shouldn't be quashed and medicated away just because the powers that be say it's a no-no. I don't like the direction things have been going in, but I feel the same way with people's attitudes to physical health too. A slight headache and we're all loading up on paracetamol. People are taught that pain is BAD and means that something is desperately WRONG. We've stopped trusting our bodies and we've ended up with millions of sickly adults and children with things like asthma. I think it's the same way with mental health. I've felt really down before and wondered what it's like to be dead, and I imagine if I had expressed all these thoughts to someone, things would have seemed much more serious than they actually were. I think we're yet to strike a balance between identifying real problems and just looking for trouble.

100% agree. If I'd been put on medication any of the times I told my parents I was going to kill myself as a punishment to them then... well, I don't know what then but the outcome wouldn't have been good.

Originally Posted by Atom' Package

That is a really tricky one, often the only way to discover a genetic condition (Autistic Spectrum Conditions, Schizophrenia ADHD are all currently considered genetic, and i know for ASC and ADHD the current thinking is that the only way to cure this 'illness' is gene therapy to a level far far beyond anything plausibly acheivable in the near future) is by observing a group of symptoms over time. Autism is a combination of regression in communication, social ability and flexibilty of thought, but no one would deny that it exists, and at the same time, it's so complex that no two people on the autistic spectrum will ever display exactly the same symptoms. So is it a disease? Should people be treated for it?

I dunno. Is it a disease? Can we not treat something without it being considered a disease? One of the kids in my class (I started working in a primary school because I'm going to be teacher) is autistic and dyspraxic and a couple of other things (they always seem to come in groups. Maybe because of the problems with diagnosis?) and there is absolutely no way that I would ever treat him as an ill child. Sure, you have to treat him slightly differently and explain things to him differently and stuff but y'know, you don't sit there and think 'there's a kid with a disease' y'know?

We've got a case study at work that everyone is supposed to read (i'm pretty certain it is true) about a guy who was struggling to get recognised as autistic, and eventually due to acting weirdly, ended up being carted from mental institution to mental institution being treated brutally (this was in the 60's when that meant actually brutally) when if his condition could have been recognised earlier, he could have lead a really full life.

That doesn't suprise me at all. My girlfriend's dad is veeeeery bipolar and after his last big breakdown was told never to stop taking his medication again or else he 'might not come back' and he had trouble getting admitted to a psychiatric hospital until he shaved his head and then they couldn't section him fast enough.

I'm not arguing with you at all, it's just something that takes up a large portion of my life, and i enjoy talking about it.

Yeah me too. I won't pretend to be an authority on the subject but what I do know has led me to form certain opinions and they're not neccesarily opinions I hold dear so bring it oooon!


AND Payaso, that was a really interesting topic. I don't really know what to say other than that. Sorry.

Dude, if we don`t medicate the children, what will Michael Moore make movies about?

Hmmm, is it still dope if the doctor writes a prescription?