Thread: Creationism

Who knows!?!?!?! Physics does provide us with excellent theories but there's only so much which we can observe. As for creationism..... well, it's just a story isn't it. Perhaps there is a divine intelligence which triggered the beginning of the universe or perhaps it's just part of a cycle of expansion and contraction which is eternal. The simple answer is that we just don't know and probably never will know.

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As far as God and science go, if God exists, the mechanisms and parameters which govern the actions of God should be quantifiable and describable. Placing God outside of the realm of both experimental and theoretical science is essentially an admission that God doesn&#39;t in fact exist, but that people want to believe in God anyways.

Which has plenty of psychosocial and anthropological implications, but no implications worth a damn as far as epistemology, metaphysics, and the essential properties and nature of the universe.[/b]

Mmmmmm... but then theoretical science gets surprised all of the time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brewtality @ Apr 16 2008, 05:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Mmmmmm... but then theoretical science gets surprised all of the time.[/b]

Really, and how many times has God been the ultimate solution?

In experiments do we ever account for God? No, because people realize the ridiculousness of God&#39;s existence but turn a blind eye.

I forgot

Science is just a map of lies pretending to be an anvil of truth. Strike the iron atop it hot until it is baked moist like a delicious brownie of faith, and crisp like bacon bits of freedomliberty, and then GOD will show you you are wrong. And how wrong you are! All is relative to the many universe&#39;s dispositions. Scientific word postulates have nothing to do with the actual universes with which we are met and blind us. We must break the word chain of the current hegemony. We must break on through the hedgeamany thick pine fence of the GroupMind and become one with our own MindWill. Only through MindWill, and not through misleading science gook-globy-gobdaloswalllowcallowmallowfollowdob, can we know the great Cosmic Truth. This is fact. If you want to eat the seeds of sorrow, grow science as your life crop. Feed the GroupMind. But, I, me, I myself, the I, shalt become one alone, strong as my MindWill, and discovering Cosmic LoveTruth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (potterface @ Apr 16 2008, 07:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Since we are all atoms, one could presume that the story of the universe and everything that has ever happened is encoded within us.[/b]

Encoded in all the matter of the entire universe? Sure if the universe is ultimately deterministic (predicting backwards possible if Heisenberg can be over come, this is hardly definite, in fact current evidence suggests otherwise). Encoded in each human being, or the race as a whole? There is no evidence I am aware of to support this, citations please? I am aware of a great bulk of evidence that makes this a completely ridiculous assumption.


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The same/similar symbols, beliefs, ideas can be found in every religion from every era around the entire world. It&#39;s as if we&#39;ve artistically expressed everything we are trying to figure out with science. Ultimately we will find one answer that ties life, the universe and everything.[/b]

You think so? I think total knowledge of the universe is ultimately impossible due to it&#39;s bulk and "truth," is forever a subjective term. The very limit of dialectics and subject/predicate logic makes this painfully obvious in my opinion. Commonalities between different cultures says a lot of interesting things as respect anthropology, psychology, the human mind, I don&#39;t think it has much baring on theoretical physics except as to the prejudices that effect psuedoscientific semi-religious hubub like the above. I love when people sight Hindu recreation myth or Herculytus as evidence that the Big Crunch is inevitable when most evidence suggest otherwise. I&#39;m not ruling it out as a possibility, and there are suggested mechanism by which it might happen, but really, it&#39;s anything but proven.


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but most of us are too stubborn to want to make this connection, so until we do, we&#39;ll never know.[/b]

Quite the opposite, I think people are far to stubborn to let go of their faith security blankets, which is why even from people who abandon conventional faith we get things like "the universe is god, we are god fabric, it&#39;s the underlying current of all." Yeah, only the god concept is totally superfluous in that statement.

Plenty of intelligent people are totally willing to ditch their well thought out epistemological guidelines in some blind hope of proving "god". (see: Einstein)

Yeah but Tim, what is your definition of God? No doubt God&#39;s manifestations within many world religions is ridiculous yet a supernatural element to the universe would not be surprising at all.

Don&#39;t get me wrong here, I&#39;m not some anti-science freak or anything, I just think that there is a limit to the potential of human knowledge and that we cannot necessarily distill the universe down into our earthly languages. As I&#39;m sure you&#39;re a fan of Wittgenstein too I don&#39;t think I need to go further into that stuff.

I just think there is the potential for a lot of things which we simply can&#39;t explain with science at the moment.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brewtality @ Apr 17 2008, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Yeah but Tim, what is your definition of God? No doubt God&#39;s manifestations within many world religions is ridiculous yet a supernatural element to the universe would not be surprising at all.[/b]

Yeah, people like to define the universe as god, or time as god. Personally, I think this a pretty obvious manifestation of an inability to do without the god security blanket.

Anything that really exists would be natural, not supernatural. Trying to personify nebulae and galactic phenomena is all well and good if it makes you feel all warm inside but don&#39;t expect science to take it seriously.

I mean, gravity and magnetism used to be unexplainable supernatural phenomenon that "proved" the existence of some sort of god, some sort of divine watchmaker, now we know about electrons and gravitons. There are also people who state "the hand of god acts through Heisenberg," which invariably in explanation reveals a very poor idea of what the Uncertainty Principle actually entails.

Well I definitely don&#39;t see &#39;God&#39; in nebulae and neither do I see God in the the Uncertainty Principle. And yes, &#39;God&#39; existing would be natural and not &#39;supernatural&#39; but y&#39;know, we have to use these words to refer to particular concepts.

Trying to define &#39;God&#39; is basically impossible isn&#39;t it unless you want to simply immerse yourself in tautological doctrine. For me, the idea of &#39;God&#39; is more one of consciousness or experience than of a &#39;thing&#39;. It&#39;s that madness which accompanies knowing you exist in the universe.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (potterface @ Apr 17 2008, 11:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tim @ Apr 16 2008, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Encoded in all the matter of the entire universe? Sure if the universe is ultimately deterministic (predicting backwards possible if Heisenberg can be over come, this is hardly definite, in fact current evidence suggests otherwise). Encoded in each human being, or the race as a whole? There is no evidence I am aware of to support this, citations please? I am aware of a great bulk of evidence that makes this a completely ridiculous assumption.[/b]

Einstein&#39;s universe is one where we aren&#39;t separate stuff in nothingness, we&#39;re all woven into a fabric. so why wouldn&#39;t all infinite knowledge be woven through this weird section of time/space we call a human being?[/b][/quote]

Er how does being part of the universe mean the "knowledge of the universe" exists in every living being? That isn&#39;t Einstein&#39;s universe, that is materialism and has been around since the Greeks. Human beings aren&#39;t a weird section of time/space, they follow all the rules of the universe we&#39;ve found very well. A weird space would be black holes, wormholes, big bang singularities, where laws appear to break down. Life is an interesting product of carbon bonding, it&#39;s not exactly a total mystery. Carbon in the ocean forms proteins, protiens form life, life follows evolution = cognition. What is infinite knowledge? Knowledge of every facet of the universe at all time? How would that come into a random grouping of carbon atoms that haven&#39;t had contact with 99.9999~% of the universe since the big bang? How would we calculate it? Your infinite knowledge sounds like mysticisms trying to gain a sense of legitimacy through pseudoscience, and misinterpretation of scientific findings.

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You think so? I think total knowledge of the universe is ultimately impossible due to it&#39;s bulk and "truth," is forever a subjective term. The very limit of dialectics and subject/predicate logic makes this painfully obvious in my opinion. Commonalities between different cultures says a lot of interesting things as respect anthropology, psychology, the human mind, I don&#39;t think it has much baring on theoretical physics except as to the prejudices that effect psuedoscientific semi-religious hubub like the above. I love when people sight Hindu recreation myth or Herculytus as evidence that the Big Crunch is inevitable when most evidence suggest otherwise. I&#39;m not ruling it out as a possibility, and there are suggested mechanism by which it might happen, but really, it&#39;s anything but proven.[/b]

Humans are creative, ingenious and artistic animals. We grew up on primal instincts (eating raw animal flesh) and graduated to a much better way of nourishing ourselves. We became aware of instincts we had and why we had/needed them, and made it quite enjoyable (now think steak, prepared in a top restaurant). What I&#39;m getting at is maybe these religions, which are based in the heart of creativity and the human mind, are instincts of a much, much deeper level. maybe we&#39;re somehow expressing the knowledge we have within us. look at the pyramids, not only are some lined up perfectly in star formations, but the same ridiculous structure has been constructed on all continents except Antarctica. it just seems strange to me that ancient people with no contact with one another, created similar structures so far apart.
I think we have it in us to express what we &#39;know,&#39; but the creativity of the human mind has encrypted it into all aspects of our art, religion and everything else &#39;human&#39; about us.
As I see it, we are busy perfecting pieces of a giant puzzle. only we&#39;ve never seen the lid. and we aren&#39;t even sure if there is one.
[/b][/quote]

Pyramids are a common shape because they are the easiest way to construct a large raised structure.

There does not seem to be a lot of evidence for an underlying superstitious Ganesha spirit vampire answer unless you set out only taking in evidence that works with that model. Star gazing says lots of things about human anthropology and early philogical beginnings, it doesn&#39;t mean there is a collective or cosmic unconsciousness though. Where is the mechanism for such a collective unconsciousness? Correlation with a given mold does not equal it being the causation.

We can observe gravitons for gravity, photons for light, electrons for electricity, entropy for time perception, where is the psychic particle?