Thread: Abortion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saint @ Apr 17 2008, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Let&#39;s have another analogy - let&#39;s say that we both get mugged by surgeons and they fuse us together in a surgery. When we awaken, we&#39;re told that the way we&#39;ve been fused together makes my life completely dependent on your organs, for nine months, until my organs recover (or something). Do you have the right to just shoot me in the head and slice me off?[/b]

This analogy also doesn&#39;t work because a zygote/fetus is not a person. It has no memories. It has no time/money/energy invested into it becoming a developed human being and it has no cognitive function. In the case of the zygote there are not even specialized cells.

On an unrelated note: one should keep in mind that pregnancy carries with it serious physical side effects, a risk of health problem/death, and limits a womans productivity for a period.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saint @ Apr 17 2008, 01:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Let&#39;s have another analogy - let&#39;s say that we both get mugged by surgeons and they fuse us together in a surgery. When we awaken, we&#39;re told that the way we&#39;ve been fused together makes my life completely dependent on your organs, for nine months, until my organs recover (or something). Do you have the right to just shoot me in the head and slice me off?[/b]

You forgot to ad that if he didnt shoot you in the head, he would be responsible for your welfair for the next twenty years. He would be responsible for watching over you night and day, and investing x amount of money into you, possibly giving up the chance to finish school, Get a better job, etc.

Just sayin&#39;

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skittles @ Apr 17 2008, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saint @ Apr 17 2008, 01:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let&#39;s have another analogy - let&#39;s say that we both get mugged by surgeons and they fuse us together in a surgery. When we awaken, we&#39;re told that the way we&#39;ve been fused together makes my life completely dependent on your organs, for nine months, until my organs recover (or something). Do you have the right to just shoot me in the head and slice me off?[/b]

You forgot to ad that if he didnt shoot you in the head, he would be responsible for your welfair for the next twenty years. He would be responsible for watching over you night and day, and investing x amount of money into you, possibly giving up the chance to finish school, Get a better job, etc.

Just sayin&#39;
[/b][/quote]

No no, a woman can put a child up for adoption and have the state cover that (albeit poorly). Only men are legally responsible for the financial upkeep of their unwanted progeny.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tim @ Apr 17 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Only men are legally responsible for the financial upkeep of their unwanted progeny.[/b]

How is this a true statement? What if a man has custody of the child and the woman pays child support?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ameliaprincesa @ Apr 17 2008, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tim @ Apr 17 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only men are legally responsible for the financial upkeep of their unwanted progeny.[/b]

How is this a true statement? What if a man has custody of the child and the woman pays child support?
[/b][/quote]

That is a pretty rare scenario, although I suppose it does happen. However, the difference is that a woman has the option of ending an unwanted pregnancy through abortion, whereas if a man contributes to creating a child he doesn&#39;t want he is pretty much fucked financially if the woman decides to go on and have the child.

I personally think you should be able to pay the price of an abortion during the gestation period and be exempt from paying child support thereafter. There is really no logical reason why we have don&#39;t have a system like this except that it would motivate more women to have abortions, which asks the question, if a women is willing to have an abortion because she knows she can&#39;t rely on an unwilling partner&#39;s financial support, should she really be a mother?

A law like that of course might motivate more women to get abortions, and thus would never be supported by any politician though.

Dont kill my fucking baby because you forgot to take your pill.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tim @ Apr 17 2008, 08:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ameliaprincesa @ Apr 17 2008, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tim @ Apr 17 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only men are legally responsible for the financial upkeep of their unwanted progeny.[/b]

How is this a true statement? What if a man has custody of the child and the woman pays child support?
[/b][/quote]

That is a pretty rare scenario, although I suppose it does happen. However, the difference is that a woman has the option of ending an unwanted pregnancy through abortion, whereas if a man contributes to creating a child he doesn&#39;t want he is pretty much fucked financially if the woman decides to go on and have the child.

I personally think you should be able to pay the price of an abortion during the gestation period and be exempt from paying child support thereafter. There is really no logical reason why we have don&#39;t have a system like this except that it would motivate more women to have abortions, which asks the question, if a women is willing to have an abortion because she knows she can&#39;t rely on an unwilling partner&#39;s financial support, should she really be a mother?

A law like that of course might motivate more women to get abortions, and thus would never be supported by any politician though.
[/b][/quote]
When I found out I was pregnant, I told Isaac that there was no way I would get an abortion. But I also said that I felt like it was unfair that the decision was 100% in my hands. So I gave him an out. I told him that if he didn&#39;t want to be involved, that&#39;s his choice and I would never seek child support. The one stipulation was that if he decided to be involved initially and then changed his mind later, he would need to provide financial support. That seemed fair to me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tim @ Apr 17 2008, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saint @ Apr 17 2008, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let&#39;s have another analogy - let&#39;s say that we both get mugged by surgeons and they fuse us together in a surgery. When we awaken, we&#39;re told that the way we&#39;ve been fused together makes my life completely dependent on your organs, for nine months, until my organs recover (or something). Do you have the right to just shoot me in the head and slice me off?[/b]

This analogy also doesn&#39;t work because a zygote/fetus is not a person. It has no memories. It has no time/money/energy invested into it becoming a developed human being and it has no cognitive function. In the case of the zygote there are not even specialized cells.
[/b][/quote]

Well it&#39;s perfectly well and good for you and I to assert that a zygote isn&#39;t a person - but the people who are morally opposed to abortion hold that a zygote is a person. From conception. This is what I was going on about earlier - abortion debates are not about the abortion itself, but rather a philosophical debate about the nature of &#39;life&#39; and when it begins.

I&#39;ll ask a question I&#39;m frequently given when arguing abortion with pro-lifers - "If not at conception, when does life begin?"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saint @ Apr 17 2008, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tim @ Apr 17 2008, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saint @ Apr 17 2008, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let&#39;s have another analogy - let&#39;s say that we both get mugged by surgeons and they fuse us together in a surgery. When we awaken, we&#39;re told that the way we&#39;ve been fused together makes my life completely dependent on your organs, for nine months, until my organs recover (or something). Do you have the right to just shoot me in the head and slice me off?[/b]

This analogy also doesn&#39;t work because a zygote/fetus is not a person. It has no memories. It has no time/money/energy invested into it becoming a developed human being and it has no cognitive function. In the case of the zygote there are not even specialized cells.
[/b][/quote]

Well it&#39;s perfectly well and good for you and I to assert that a zygote isn&#39;t a person - but the people who are morally opposed to abortion hold that a zygote is a person. From conception. This is what I was going on about earlier - abortion debates are not about the abortion itself, but rather a philosophical debate about the nature of &#39;life&#39; and when it begins.

I&#39;ll ask a question I&#39;m frequently given when arguing abortion with pro-lifers - "If not at conception, when does life begin?"
[/b][/quote]

As with all things in life, there are no definites, no? However, I personally feel that when a fetus can survive on it&#39;s own outside the womb without parasiting off the mother&#39;s organs, then it can be considered alive. I realize this is an arbitrary judgment. However, ilegalizing abortion is still not a good option any way you look at it. People seeking abortions will still get them, they will just be unsafe abortions, not only destroying the life of the fetus or zygote, but the possibly mother as well.

Arbitrary utilitarianism? Yes.

However, in the end what isn&#39;t arbitrary? "Existentialism is humanism," and in humanism subjectivity is the name of the game.

It is a very complex topic, and I could find good arguments in either direction as I mentioned earlier in the thread. In the end though, it does allow me to use the term "theofacist," which gets a kick out of me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tim @ Apr 17 2008, 11:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

People seeking abortions will still get them, they will just be unsafe abortions, not only destroying the life of the fetus or zygote, but the possibly mother as well.[/b]

This reasoning is used anytime people want to make anything legal.

"We should make heroin legal... people who want to use it are going to anyway, but theyll just find an unsafe version of it."