Thread: Should Creationism be Taught in Schools?

With no personal shot intended against the yanks, but it seems that some American's view evolution as a 'lie' and that the 'God created blah blah' as the truth, so they consider it perfectly reasonable to teach Creationism in schools.

I'd call them idiots, but that's another matter.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saint @ Sep 13 2008, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Trionix @ Sep 13 2008, 11:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh come on.

Surely there must be someone who buys this crazy bullshit.[/b]

I can pretend to agree with it, that way you&#39;ll have someone to scream at.
[/b][/quote]
It&#39;s not the same. When I win, it&#39;ll be a shallow victory.

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The Church of England will tomorrow officially apologise to Charles Darwin for misunderstanding his theory of evolution.[/b]

Bit late, but I guess they&#39;ve got to do something to keep themselves from looking fucking ridiculous.

I believe in God, and I believe that God created the world and us. However, I believe he did it through the process of evolution.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (devils_lil_angel @ Sep 14 2008, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I believe in God, and I believe that God created the world and us. However, I believe he did it through the process of evolution.[/b]

Do you believe in God or do you believe in "intelligent design"?

Would you like a Carolyn response circa 2002?

Honestly, I think a logic class would be the best thing to happen to high school education in a long time. That way kids could learn what an assumption is and what a person can logically determine from those assumptions. I honestly don&#39;t think most high schoolers are mature enough for a philosophy/religion course, which is the only place I can see creationism having any business being.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Carolyn @ Sep 14 2008, 04:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Honestly, I think a logic class would be the best thing to happen to high school education in a long time. That way kids could learn what an assumption is and what a person can logically determine from those assumptions.[/b]

This would unfortunately dramatically change the outcome of elections, and therefore would not be allowed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ghetto Onion @ Sep 14 2008, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (devils_lil_angel @ Sep 14 2008, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe in God, and I believe that God created the world and us. However, I believe he did it through the process of evolution.[/b]

Do you believe in God or do you believe in "intelligent design"?
[/b][/quote]

I believe in God. Maybe God doesn&#39;t exsist, there certainly isn&#39;t an abundance of evidence for it, and there is a great amount of proof for evolution. So I understand why me saying "I believe God created us through evolution" doesn&#39;t make sense, and comes out more so in me believing in intelligent design.

I am not by any means a bible thumper. I have never read the bible, a lot of the stuff in there I do not believe in or agree in. I have also gotten up and walked out of church before because I did not agree with what the Preist was saying. I am not confirmed because of that also, the preist told me that if you don&#39;t believe in God then you have nothing in life. That is wrong. Everyone has something in life, and they do not need a God to have it.

Maybe I do just like the thought that there is something out there, that we all have a path or purpose. But then again, I also believe we all have different paths, there is a destiny, but how we get there is our choice, not some higher beings. Also, stuff has happened in my life that really makes me believe in God and miracles.

I think kids are a lot smarter then what people give them credit for. So why not teach them about both creationism and evolution. Most people know what they believe and what they think is right and wrong when they hit about 16, they might not have it all worked out, but they got an idea about it all. So why not educated them the best we can about everything we can?

Sorry if any of that came out preachy.

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I believe in God.[/b]

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Maybe God doesn&#39;t exsist, there certainly isn&#39;t an abundance of evidence for it[/b]

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I have never read the bible, a lot of the stuff in there I do not believe in or agree in.[/b]

So why do you believe in God?

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So why not teach them about both creationism and evolution.[/b]

Because there&#39;s no proof for creationism, and if we agree that we&#39;re going to start teaching children things that there&#39;s no proof for, we might as well scrap the whole concept of education altogether.

I think the issue (to reply to Devil&#39;s li&#39;l angel) is not creationism being taught in school, to be fair, I&#39;m sure most of us got taught something about it, but teaching it in science lessons. it is not a science, it makes nothing of the scientific method, under absolutely no definition of creationism or science can the first be defined by the second.

It&#39;s &#39;a theology&#39; and it is not appropriate to teach a theology in science, theology by it&#39;s very definition is separate from science, not to say that either is more important than the other, that&#39;s completely and utterly irrelevant to this issue (well, my take on the issue) but it&#39;s like teaching someone French in a maths lesson, and if you have a particularly cynical take on why people want it taught in science lessons, then expecting them to believe all mathematicians are French.

not to sound preachy, just i really have a massive problem with the idea that it should be treated as a science (treat it scientifically be all means, but that inherently means destroying the theory, and the religious right will not let that happen) but don&#39;t treat it as a science, but that will give kids a skewed perspective on a)what science is, and b) christianity&#39;s place in the world.

like, do you hear these guys demanding that any other religions get the scientific treatment? no, it&#39;s because they want a (their) religion treated as a science.

bah, makes me angry, the sheer fact that they don&#39;t even attempt to hide their manipulative little agenda.

EDIT: I also wouldn&#39;t want the theory of evolution to be taught in R.E. but that doesn&#39;t seem to be an issue for some reason?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Trionix @ Sep 15 2008, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

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I believe in God.[/b]

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Maybe God doesn&#39;t exsist, there certainly isn&#39;t an abundance of evidence for it[/b]

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I have never read the bible, a lot of the stuff in there I do not believe in or agree in.[/b]

So why do you believe in God?

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So why not teach them about both creationism and evolution.[/b]

Because there&#39;s no proof for creationism, and if we agree that we&#39;re going to start teaching children things that there&#39;s no proof for, we might as well scrap the whole concept of education altogether.
[/b][/quote]

I say maybe God doesn&#39;t exsist because I am not naive to believe in God as a fact of life, rather I believe in God as just that, a belief, and because I am not the type of person to say "God exists, and that is all there is to it".

I go to church, I like the sense of community. What I don&#39;t like about church is all hypocritcal bull that goes along with it. People like to judge, and at church they do, lots of people believe if you go to church your faith is stronger, which is not the way it is. God for me is everywhere, you can talk to God where ever and when ever you want. There is no right or wrong way to do so. So just because someone goes to church, or does or doesn&#39;t believe in God, does not make them better. Also, I do not believe in everything the bible says, because so much of it is open to interpretation. Anyone can take it and morph it to how they see fit to justify themselves.

For me believing in God isn&#39;t the bible, it isn&#39;t organized religion, it is trying your best to be a good person, and to keep trying to become an even better person. It is doing the best you can, helping others, and just the overall good in humanity. Yes I am unbelievabley naive when it comes to human nature, and even when it comes to my belief in God, that I have no problem admitting.

For the reasons I believe in God, they might seem silly to others but for me, I do believe they are miracles, and I am sorry if that steps on someone else&#39;s view, but here they are:
- My mom when I was about 4 got into a horrible car accident with a drunk driver. She had to have brain surgery more times then I can remember. She was in and out of hospitals for years. I wouldn&#39;t come home from school, I would go to the hospital. It was hard, it was difficult, and at the time I didn&#39;t understand it, it was what was normal, but now I look back, and I think how the hell did my mom get through that. Yes the doctors were great, I do give them and mordern medicine the credit they deserve. But I also think how did my family and I get through that? And I think part of that was God.

- My best friend died when I was 12, she died of an asthma attack. Her step mom just brought home her second little brother a week before, and they lived out of town. The ambulance was on their way, and her dad was driving to meet it, she never made it to the hospital. This was when I went to my mom and said, "I am depressed, I need help". Now this is selfish, but because God took her away from me, I realized I needed help.

- My grandma had 5 heart attacks, and 3 open heart surgerys, all before I was born. My grandma lived came to live with us when I was born. And because of my mom&#39;s car accident, my grandma ended up raising me a lot more then my mom did. My mom is mom, and I love her, but I have more memories with my grandma then with her. Who the hell survives 5 heart attacks and 3 open heart surgerys? I believe God went, "Nope, your grand- daughter is going to need you"

- When I was 14 my grandma was diagnosed with lung cancer. Doctor said if she had the surgery, only a 70% chance she would make it off the table, but she would live for up to 5 years. If she had the radiation, she would make it probably up to 2 years max, but wouldn&#39;t need the oxygen tank. We discussed it as a family, she took the radiation. It made her a little tired, but she got through it with no side affects. Except for she made it to my high school graduation, completely healthy. The radiation shrunk the tumor enough that she got 5 more years from when she was diagnosed. She fought so hard against her cancer, and when she died, that was not even what got her. It was too much fluid in her lungs. When we brought her into the hospital, the doctor said, a week tops. She lasted 8 days. I believe God gave her those extra years with us, and that extra day. God knew my grandma was fighter, and didn&#39;t let her go out laying down.

- I was in grade 12, was going to be late, I called the house, told my grandma. When I got home, my mom wasn&#39;t there, asked where she was. She was in the hospital, she had a blood clot go through her heart. If the that clot had been even a centimeter over more, she would have died. There, I believe God intervened again.

- My mom just in january had brain surgery again. This time for brain anuerysms. She got through it, they kicked her out of the hospital 3 days after her surgery, because she was doing so good. Doctors are great, but I really do think it was God that helped her through it. Because that woman already had her head sliced open so many times.

- My sister&#39;s marriage was having problems for a while appearantly. He had an affair, my sister got pregnant, and her world is falling apart around her. The person who told her he would take care of her, love and cherish her forever, was putting her through a mind fuck and hell, at the same time. She started bleeding one night....really really bad, she thought she was losing her baby. She lived 9 hours away, it was 11 pm, and I was driving there. I got there without a scratch on me, and without a problem. It was a place I never driven to before, and I had no idea how to get there. I did it off of a map and a lot of coffee. God helped me get there, because my sister needed me.

- I also believe God gave my sister the baby when he did, because God knew she needed something. A reason to get up, a reason to go on with life, while everything was against her. My sister doesn&#39;t believe in depression, so even though her husband left, she would never admit it got to her bad, or that she had troubles getting out of bed at first. But her being pregant gave her reason to get up, her being pregnant gives her reason to tell her ex husband to go fuck himself. Her pregnancy was the only thing keeping her going. That is why when she was bleeding, God stopped it in time. It ended up being her placenta was detaching, but it didn&#39;t detached all the way. That baby isn&#39;t even out of the womb yet, and has been through so much, but baby and my sister are both healthy and doing good now, and that is because of God.

I know these seem silly, and yes, I do believe medicine and the doctors had something to do with it. But God helped, all the way through God has helped. My mom could have died in the car accident, or on the operating table, but didn&#39;t. My best friend dying could have crushed me, but it didn&#39;t. I could have never known my Grandma, instead she had the biggest influence on my life. My sister could have decided to give up, but didn&#39;t because she has her baby.

Also, there has been so many times, not recently mind you, where I have been thinking of hurting myself, killing myself or whatever, and the phone rings. One of my friends needs me, or had this horrible feeling, or was checking up on me. That for me is also God.

Okay, wow, I wrote way more then I want to, and I haven&#39;t even got to my next point.

I do agree with both Atom and Trionix, without the proof, yes it does mess the educational system up. It should not be taught as a science by any means, because it is not a science. However, philosphy isn&#39;t a complete science either. So could we treat it as an abstract class? I don&#39;t think it should be mandatory, but what about as an option? Also, I think people should be taught about different religions, whether it be Buddhism, Muslim, or Catholic, and about Atheism, everyone should be well informed, but it shouldn&#39;t be mandatory. I just know a lot of people who want to believe in something, but don&#39;t know where to start, or what it is they want. So why not give people the oppurtunity to learn about it?

(Sorry I wrote so much)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Atom&#39;s Package @ Sep 15 2008, 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

like, do you hear these guys demanding that any other religions get the scientific treatment? no, it&#39;s because they want a (their) religion treated as a science.[/b]

Just cutting that bit out from the post for clarity.

I think that they want to challenge evolution because it undermines their belief in the bible as a 100% true book. If their children are taught evolution is science (And therefore, correct), it sets up a metaphorical roadblock whereby the child has two sets of conflicting information which makes it far harder for them to accept the Bible (which already has conflicting statements and relies on faith) verses Science (which relies on testing and proving things).

If you see what I&#39;m trying to reason there.

Devil, just for the record, science and theology are both philosophies, i.e. both &#39;searches for knowledge&#39; in their own different direction.

there are no complete sciences (or philosophies as i guess you meant), but there are specific boundaries for the study of any given philosophy, whether it be pure philosophy, religion, science or maths. and the and those philosohphies become meaningless without the boundaries because they do not adhere to their own definitions. i&#39;m presuming you don&#39;t actually have any interest in this at all, but on the off chance you do, check out Wittgenstein&#39;s theory of language games, it&#39;s a really good way to look at things like this i think (although i&#39;m talking about a kind of &#39;meta-topic&#39; now, sorry)

yeh, shadow, do you mean that there is a kinda imbalance skewed towards science as almost a dogmatic thing at the moment? that people want to even up a bit? if that&#39;s what you mean, i kinda agree to some extent, i mean, science is kinda more important when it comes to getting a job at the end of the day, because it&#39;s a useful tool to judge certain types of intelligence by, but i don&#39;t think religion should be passed off or anything. erm, to be honest i&#39;ve got myself confused i think, what exactly are you saying?

Atom, sorry, I guess bringing philosophy into my point wasn&#39;t a good idea. Just in the philosophy course I did take, it was all abstract and what if&#39;s, that is why I used it, but I get now that it doesn&#39;t really make sense. And I will definitely look in Wittgensteins theory of language, I love to expand my mind, and explore new things, it doesn&#39;t mean I will agree with it, assuming I understand it, and thank you for the suggetion.

Shadow, do you mean that people want it taught so that their children understand it as the "truth" and so children are not able to question it? I think that is what you mean, if not, sorry. But it does make sense to me, if a child grows up believing that, and then all of a sudden is hit with all this evidence about evolution, it will make them question many things. Not that is a bad thing, that is how people learn.

Yea, its alittle hard to explain, so let me try this again.

Imagine you are teaching someone about... how bread rises, the &#39;cooking priest&#39; says: "Thy God has command the bread rise in the oven, so it does" but the &#39;cooking scientist&#39; says: "The bread rises because of yeast, [insert bread rising because of yeast science here], you can try it yourself". This calls the cooking bible into question as &#39;If its actually yeast and not God, then maybe the other things it says aren&#39;t true/accurate&#39; which undermines the TOTAL belief that everything in the cooking bible is true.

Now imagine you are a parent who believes 100% in the cooking bible, you don&#39;t want to accept that your years of 100% pure belief are questionable and you want your children to believe as you believe. They therefore don&#39;t want their kids learn the cooking science way so they do take the cooking bible as 100%.

That&#39;s just to try and get the point across.

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Shadow, do you mean that people want it taught so that their children understand it as the "truth" and so children are not able to question it?[/b]

Yes, in a way that they don&#39;t have the &#39;tools&#39; or thought to question it.