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Reply With QuoteHave you been reading Snow Crash?
(Ok, so the following points could be aimed at many targets, but I'll go with Christianity for it's familiarity.)
So, a commonly voiced opinion on this section of the DV board is that Christianity is a bunch of non-existent mumbo jumbo that causes a wholly unnecessary bullshit avalanche and that it's a real pain that something "not real" can harsh us all something major. My thoughts; no doubt. However, from a given point of view, Christ, and the Judeo-Christian god are quite real, not only in their effects on the social sphere, but really in a quite physical sense.
This is how I would put it: God exists in an observable (albeit poorly) physical sense. If you could somehow mass all the neurons in all the brains of all the people in the world (gross oversimplification of the human brain of course, no one neuron codes for any one specific idea, "grandmother cell theory = bunk," but it works well enough for this sort of grand scale) associated with the memory and processing of Christian memes (ideas, concepts, philosophical models, etcskis.) in one place you would have a very large physical being. You'd have a fuckton of cells for sure. The fact is, with 2 billion Christians, and billions more exposed to Christianity's core memes, Christianity the "concept" in fact accounts for a meaningful mass of the physical information processing and storage materials of our species. Quite meaningful if you look at the net effects of Christian memes.
Now, the neurolinguistic virus aspect!
A virus is pretty much a strand of genetic material (chemically encoded information), incapable of self replication, that, by virtue of its properties, is able to inject it's genetic material into living organism's cells, where that genetic material is reproduced en masse by the genetic reproductive machinery of the infected cell. The reproduced material then spreads itself to other cells, using the means given to it by virtue of the genetic information it carries.
A simple definition of the memeL the basic unit of cultural information. The "genetic material" of ideas.
Using the old objective/subjective dichotomy (a memeplauge infecting most of the West's minds hardcore), we can see viruses as quite objective. They are material things. Memes exist in the subjective world. Concepts aren't material. Only, really, even from the objective/subjective framework, the meme really is coded in the physical structure of the human being, at least as far as we can tell. Language, declarative memory; these seem to be linked strongly to physical structures in the human nervous system.
So, an evil linguistic plague like Christianity, a collection of associated memes, acts a bit like a virus. It cannot reproduce on it's own. However, it can spread linguistically. The base framework of organized religions are linguistic. They don't rely on common sensory experience (like shamanism does), half as much as they do on linguistic structures. A huge part of the modern human brain is dedicated to language processing and symbol manipulation. A memeplauge like Christianity uses the host's (us) existing information producing machinery to reproduce much like a virus does. Vocalizations and written tracts becomes a means to spread the memes to other hosts. The meme is thus encoded into physical nervous structure of the afflicted via the aforementioned means. They in turn become infected, and often, with a memeplauge as potent as Christianity, they become active spreaders of the disease (although some remain relatively immune and do not actively spread the memes they've been imprinted with.) In the most vulnerable, the Christian memeplex can dictate the majority of the host's behavior. They end up living only to spread the meme on to others. Basic biological needs like food, water, sex, sleep, these will all be sacrificed in the need to develop (mutate) the memeplex or spread it to others. In fanatics the memeplex of Christian ideas has highjacked the nervous system and even basic functions and drives are reigned in under the memes' collective influence.
Or, that's one way to look at Christianity/religions/ideologies in general. Of course the idea of ideologies as often malevolent virus-like "neurolinguistic plagues" is a memeplex in and of itself. I've just infected some of you!
I like to look at it like this though, some viruses in nature work quite to our advantage. The same is surely true of memes and connected groups of memes. Ideologies, or, neurolinguistic plagues, can hijack our nervous systems. That's why we need to read a lot and install good virus protection software! Of course, the encoding of said software would be in meme form, that's why you've got to be careful with that stuff too. This is why we need lots of good programmers to keep coming up with effective memes to combat malicious ones. I'm trying to come up with a Christianity uninstall meme, but no luck yet. But there is hope! It seems to be that memes which vaccinate against it already exist at large in the population!
(Sorry to single out one ideology, one plague, just using it as an example, no hard feelings.)
Ok, I need to go run my virus software.
Have you been reading Snow Crash?
"The deepest definition of youth is life as yet untouched by tragedy."
-Alfred North Whitehead
"Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world."
-Arthur Schopenhauer
Not recently, but that is a really cool book. I think it was originally supposed to be a graphic novel, which could have be great to. I think now it'd seem horribly dated though. A lot of the data stuff has already happened and all we got was 4chan.
Pretty boring stuff as you can apply that to absolutely any idea or concept you fancy. In fact it applies to any sort of information whatsoever.
It's not really revolutionary thinking when you say that religions like Christianity require people to grow.
There's been quite a fad for describing social phenomena using biological language but I myself find it pretty lame. No offense to you though.
The broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes... Adolf Hitler
Memantics really isn't a really fad, it's established in linguistics. IDK if the theory was originally developed off genetic theory but it's discussed that way often (although the virus comparison isn't there).
It's hardly anything original; it's a concept that's interesting if you haven't come across it before though.
I dunno about "memantics" but dawkins sure does talk about memetics in his books and we all know how much he loves to talk genetics.Originally Posted by Dr. Timothy DraculaLaserX
"The deepest definition of youth is life as yet untouched by tragedy."
-Alfred North Whitehead
"Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world."
-Arthur Schopenhauer
Yeah, he's definitely a gene-centric thinker. I like plenty of what Dawkins says but he's so sure of his convictions that he comes across as very preachy and far-too-often patronising. It's all a matter of your personal perspective. Dawkins has chosen to look at the world through the perspective of genes and therefore he sees a living world in which genes are on a quest (for some reason) to reproduce themselves. However, those genes are made up of DNA, which in turn is made of amino acid compounds which in turn are made up of atoms which in turn are made up of electrons, protons and neutrons which in turn are made up of...... etc... So why are genes the driving force?
The broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes... Adolf Hitler
i find it hilarious something as old as Christianity which has been around long before you and possible will be around long after you're dead, can provoke so much of your time and energy into it. Here's a meme for you,
When it comes to pink butterflies i could give a flying fuck.
Perhaps it's because genes are what actually define us. Whereas broken down into such simple terms as atoms, protons, neutrons, etc, we're no different from each other.
If we never thought about anything, we'd never get anywhere.
"The deepest definition of youth is life as yet untouched by tragedy."
-Alfred North Whitehead
"Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world."
-Arthur Schopenhauer
we had 2000+ years to think about that
When it comes to pink butterflies i could give a flying fuck.
We also had thousands of years to think about slavery, insisting that we shouldn't bother to think about something anymore since it has survived hundreds of generations of humans is ridiculous...we'd be so primitive.
Also- heard something on the news today that reminded me of this topic. A group of scientists testing reactions with e. coli gene cells that had been bio-engineered to glow. All they were doing was "turning it on" to make proteins so the expected response was to have a steady glow...and for all examples to be the same since every single gene was identical to the next one. Turns out they were flickering, or sputtering, in patterns, and every single one had it's own unique pattern, some would have different types of flickering even. None were the same. These genes which are exactly identical to each other were giving off entirely different unpredictable responses. Isn't that fascinating?! I never knew something broken down into such simple forms could react so chaotically.
"The deepest definition of youth is life as yet untouched by tragedy."
-Alfred North Whitehead
"Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world."
-Arthur Schopenhauer
Ah yes but we are made up of atoms and their constituent parts (well, we're made up of energy as is all the other visible matter in the universe) and so in essence we are no different from each other. So what I am saying is where do you draw the line and say "ah, this collection of particles is what defines us"? Genes do indeed dictate our physiology and in that way they may differentiate individuals from each other but if you have any sort of belief in a spiritual element to existence then genes simply aren't going to provide you with any answers. My problem with Dawkins here is that he has decided that the reproduction of genetic material is the purpose of said material's existence - i.e. that living organisms exist to reproduce. The process is there for all to see, it's just that there appears to be no rhyme or reason to it, no motive. It almost seems as though Dawkins is proposing that we are at the mercy of the will of our genetics which sounds to me as though God has been taken out of heaven and placed in our DNA. I'm a pretty rational and logical person and I'm also a positivist so if you show me something to be true then I will assume it is until someone proves otherwise. However the universe is so vast and the variables so many that I think it is arrogance in the extreme for somebody to decide they have found a fundamental truth about our existance and the reasons for it. I love science, I love geology and geography, I spend a stupid amount of time researching cosmology, astronomy and astro-physics yet all this has truly convinced me of is that we know barely anything about the universe and the world we live in. We can know what things are made of (to an extent) and we can observe how things interact but that doesn't tell us shit about why anything happens. So perhaps genes do dictate much of our behaviour and maybe even our propensity to believe certain things but until someone like Dawkins can even begin to tell me why or how then I don't want to see their smug faces patronising people who believe in religion.Perhaps it's because genes are what actually define us. Whereas broken down into such simple terms as atoms, protons, neutrons, etc, we're no different from each other.
Last edited by Brewtality; 09-21-2009 at 11:58 AM.
The broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes... Adolf Hitler
You should become familiar with the term "emergent property."
Hydrogen is a super flammable gas, oxygen and flame have an equally explosive reaction. Nothing about the properties of either one would suggest that when they're chemically bound they make a substance ideal for putting out fires. Saying genes don't do "anything" and it's all quarks and photons is the definition of super bad reductionism. You'll never get any sort of clear picture that way.
Er, I didn't say 'genes don't do anything'. Re-read what I posted. I am not someone who likes to deal in absolutes when it comes to talking about philosophy and science as it has been proven time and time again that those who believe in absolutes are often shown up by new discoveries.
I undertsand the notions of emergence and see no reason to contest it's assumptions but it doesn't really apply here because as I said, I'm not contesting the notion that genes affect our physiology and psychology, simply that focusing on genes as the 'controlling' element of all life is not something I am comfortable with especially given the lack of explanation as to why genes would want to replicate.
The broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes... Adolf Hitler
Well the field of biophysics is rapidly expanding. How genes work, and why they "want" to reproduce is explained down to the atomic level pretty well already on a basic overarching level. An explanation of how quantum phenomenon and biology work together is probably a long long ways away though because of all the noise inherent in biological systems (though quantum activity has been observed in some green alge's photsynthetic activity). If you want to be a positivist and get quantum explanations I think you're SOL anyways though.
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