Thread: Catholicism

no one said anything to this yet?

ive got but one thing to say:

jesus said we need no man to intercede between us and god besides him...basically its a sacrelige to consider any man "holy" as catholics do priests, its fine to revere a teacher, but dont have the misconception that a priest is any closer to god than you can be

You've painted a rather pretty picture of catholicism, and while there are many misconceptions about the religion there are also many ugly truths which are generally only misconcieved by those who buy heavily into this religion. Would have been a good idea to include the negative truths as well. No organised religion is all sunshine and rainbows.

I am catholic, baptised catholic when I was baby. Didnt know much about it growing up, never went to church, never had my first comunion. Learned things here and there, and then I went to catholic school by choice when I was older, because I desired to learn about my religion. Bad move, the pedestal I had it on was quickly shattered, and the ugly truths revealed.

Did you know that when a baby dies, it cannot be burried inside a catholic cemetary, even if its a still born, or dies immediately after birth?? Regardless of whether or not the entire family is catholic. They have a seperate fenced off area outside of the cemetary for these babies. Why does god judge those who are unable to think unpure thoughts, or even function on their own, and decide they are not good enough for his catholic cemetary?? One absurd practice of the catholic faith right there.

Catholic people who commit suicide are also not allowed to be burried in the catholic cemetary. People who commit murder however, and then pass on, are. You cannot take your own life, and have God be okay with it, but by all means you can take anothers life, and be pardoned right into purgatory to be purified of your sins and sail your way into heaven. Also seems a little off to me.

If you live with the person you are going to marry, a lot of catholic churches will refuse to marry you. Regardless of whether or not you are having intercourse or being sexually active at all with them. Its now a sin to live with another person. If you were previously married before, you must go through a long process which eventually annuls that previous marriage in the catholic churches eyes, and then places any children as bastard children, and you as someone who had pre-marital sex because the catholic church refuses to recognize and previous marriages.

Its hard to get a catholic priest to lead a funeral if the deceased had not recieved their first communion. Regardless of whether the person practised faithfully, or not at all. Its nearly a requirement.

If you are not baptised catholic, the catholics say you will go to hell. Judgemental much?? You could fully follow the catholic religion and never commit a sin, but you must be fully commited to the religion before God will love you enough to let you into heaven. So really, it doesnt matter how good of a person you are, it just matters that some priest blesses a little tap water and drops it on your head and you ask for forgiveness every once and a while.

Priests, Nuns etc. Unrealistic for this day and age. Sure, still have them if necessary (I find nuns and what not unneccesary) But if they are going to be there, atleast allow them to follow natures instinct and procreate and be with people of the opposite sex. That unrealistic expectation of those who choose a profession within the catholic faith is too much. It causes so much corruption in the religion, and paints a very very poor picture of a religion that in comparison to a lot of religions, isnt all that bad. It definately has its downside, and some of its just incredibly rediculous, but it could be a lot worse. While its been said that some eastern rites allow marriage, most of the catholic rites do not. If god created people to procreate, then why in the world would god not want a select few people to not breed?? Particularly when those people are gods messengers and GOOD people?? I'd think if anything, they should be forced to procreate and spread their god loving genes all over the place. But no, these god-loving, non sinning (supposedly) people, arent allowed to do what natures intended them to do, all in the name of god, who created them with that purpose in the first place. Makes no sense to me, and this is why we have priests and bishops molesting little boys, and nuns getting pregnant.

Quick annecdote:
While picking out a plot for my father, the cemetary keeper was telling me a story about the man burried next to the plot I had picked out. The plot I chose was on a nice little hill, surrounded by trees and the sun hit it just right. Next to where my father would be burried, is a priest. The plot next to the priest is the plot his female "housekeeper" purchased after the priest died. This woman is still alive, now maybe Im a cynic and pessemistic. But i think if I only cleaned someones house and had no emotional attatchment to them whatsoever, I would be in no rush to guarantee I could be burried beside that person immediatly following their death. It seems absurd. He also told me the night following the priests burial, there was a thunder storm. This cemetary is surrounded by a small forest in the back, you can tell when a tree is hit...and there are about 10 or so trees in the cemetary, its small. The tree directly behind the priests plot, was struck by lightning and came crashing down on the priests grave. Only tree in the area to be hit. Now this to me is just coincidence, but to a lot that would seem like gods wrath, god gets spiteful when you lead a secret life that defies him apparently.

I do not believe in organised religion, and I think they all have their flaws, I just felt it neccesary to point out the negative aspects of catholicism since you only told the good stuff. If you're going to tell the truth, especially if your goal is to clear up misconceptions and create a better understanding, its important to tell the entire truth instead of only the good parts.

Otherwise, good article.

jesus said we need no man to intercede between us and god besides him

Geleznof-

I assume you are talking about 1 Timothy 2:5, in which Saint Paul writes: "For there is only one God, and there is only one Mediator between God and humanity, Himself being a human being, Christ Jesus..."

Catholics interpret this to mean that there is only one Mediator who is God and Man-Jesus Christ. If you look at the first verse of this chapter, it reads: "I urge then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving should be offered for everyone," which is human mediation that is, however, not in conflict with the Mediatorship of Christ.

In many places in the Bible, Christians are encouraged to intercede for one another. This is human intercession and mediation and is fully supported by Scripture and Apostolic Tradition:

Acts of the Apostles 8:24: "Then Simon [Magus] answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.” "

Romans 15:31: "Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there."

Ephesians 6:18: "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints."

Historically, the Apostles had authority from Christ, which was transferred to their successors, the Bishops, who in turn gave this authority to the priests they ordained. They are not always individually right and there have been many priests and bishops who have taught things contrary to Church teaching. However, when acting as a whole teaching authority, they are blessed with the protective promise of Christ, Who said to Peter, “You are Peter [rock] and on this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome It. I give to you the keys of heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Peter went on to become the Bishop of Rome and this authority and supremacy over the other bishops was handed down through his successors. For a full list of the popes (Bishops of Rome) look here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

basically its a sacrelige to consider any man "holy" as catholics do priests, its fine to revere a teacher, but dont have the misconception that a priest is any closer to god than you can be

Priests act as representatives of Christ, and in union with Him, not as a separate and opposing force. During the Mass, the Priest speaks the words of Christ to the Apostles at the Last Supper: “This is My Body...This is My Blood.” He consecrates the Bread and Wine and they become the Body and Blood of Christ, as is mentioned repeatedly in the New Testament-

John 6:53-56: “Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My Flesh is real Food and My Blood is real Drink. Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood remains in Me, and I in him.”"

Luke 22:19-20: “And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My Body given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same way, after the supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My Blood, Which is poured out for you.”

Matthew 26:26-28: “While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to His disciples, saying, “Take and eat; This is My Body.” Then He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is My Blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.””

Mark 14:22-24: “While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to His disciples, saying, “Take It; This is My Body.” Then He took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. “This is My Blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” He said to them.”

1 Corinthians 11:23-29: “For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My Body, Which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My Blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the Body and Blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognising the Body of the Lord eats and drinks judgement on himself.”

We do not believe priests are necessarily holier or better people, but that they have taken on a special role of service in the Church and are conformed by their ordination to the Image of Christ. Elders, priests, deacons and bishops date back to the time of the Apostles, and have a certain place in traditional Christianity, as handed down from Christ through the Apostles.

LittleBit-

Did you know that when a baby dies, it cannot be burried inside a catholic cemetary, even if its a still born, or dies immediately after birth??

I am entirely unaware of the practice of not allowing unbaptised babies not being allowed to be buried in Catholic cemeteries with everyone else. If it occurs, it is certainly contrary to Church teaching, which states:

Catechism of the Catholic Church #1261:“Children who have died without Baptism, the Church entrusts to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused Him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allows us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.”

Catholic people who commit suicide are also not allowed to be burried in the catholic cemetary.

Many do allow those who have committed suicide be given Catholic burials, but you are correct that traditionally this is prohibited. This is the case when someone commits the grave sin of suicide and shows no repentance-unless they were not of sound mind when they committed suicide. The same is true for anyone who has committed a grave sin and not shown any repentance. So murderers who do not repent are also prohibited from receiving Catholic burials.

However, these prohibitions are interpreted as mildly as possible, many have changed since their ancient beginnings (many dating back to the fourth century) and in reality most are allowed a Catholic burial. Sometimes the priest may have to give approval, or even refer the case to the local bishop if in doubt.

You cannot take your own life, and have God be okay with it, but by all means you can take anothers life

Catholics do not condone the sin of suicide ever, nor do we condone the deliberate killing of innocent people. However, we do not pass judgement on individual human beings, saying they are necessarily bound for hell because of their actions. We do not know that and it is not our place to consider it-it is God’s.

but by all means you can take anothers life, and be pardoned right into purgatory to be purified of your sins and sail your way into heaven.

Murder committed with full knowledge and intention is a mortal sin, and as such, if one were to die having not repented this sin, it would be worthy of the punishment of hell. This is simply because a mortal sin is a deliberate desire to be cut off from God, and therefore one actually chooses hell. I’m not passing judgement on individuals here, even murderers. In real-life individual cases I do not know whether full intention and knowledge were used and whether repentance has been made. Also, you might want to note that if someone commits suicide because of mental illness then it is not a mortal sin because they are not fully excercising their free will in choosing to intend to sever a relationship with the divine.

If you live with the person you are going to marry, a lot of catholic churches will refuse to marry you. Regardless of whether or not you are having intercourse or being sexually active at all with them. Its now a sin to live with another person.

Cohabitation is considered a sin, yes, but this is not a new invention.

If you were previously married before, you must go through a long process which eventually annuls that previous marriage in the catholic churches eyes

Annulment is not always granted for those who wish to remarry. It only occurs when the marriage actually wasn’t valid in the first place. For example, when one partner was mentally incapable and the time of marriage, or if one partner was forced into the marriage. In these cases, it is most often the case that at least one party has done nothing wrong, so it would not be considered the case that they had sinned by having sex before marriage. The Gospel says-

Matthew 19:3-9: “Some Pharisees came to Him [Jesus]to test Him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” “Haven't you read,” He replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Mark 10:2-12: “Some Pharisees came and tested Him [Jesus] by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” “What did Moses command you?” He replied. They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.” “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

The Church does not arbitrarily decide that marriage is permanent, Jesus says that, in the Eyes of God, the divorced are still married because they have become one flesh. However, if the marriage was not valid in the first place (possibly through little or not fault of the two parties), this can be officially annulled and both parties are free to marry again (or, in reality, marry for the first time).

Its hard to get a catholic priest to lead a funeral if the deceased had not recieved their first communion. Regardless of whether the person practised faithfully, or not at all. Its nearly a requirement.

This may be the poor practice of one or two priests, but I know of no general support for this. However, practicing Catholics are bound to receive Communion at least once a year, so they should be doing this while alive, if possible. However, as I have said, the rules are more relaxed nowadays.

Having looked through a very lengthy article about the traditional Canon Law regarding burials (which is changeable throughout time and between different Rites) there is nothing about the necessity of having your First Holy Communion to be given a Catholic burial. And if there was no such requirement in the past, I doubt that the current, much more relaxed, practices would include this requirement.

It is, however, only proper that a Catholic receive their First Holy Communion once they reach the age of reason, and this is around the age of eight. Of course, converts are always welcome, but those baptised into the Catholic Church ought to have their First Holy Communion at this time. Obviously, if they choose not to it is up to them, but Catholic parents have a duty to teach their children the Faith and encourage them in it as they promised this before God and His people at baptism.



Believe me: I am a member of a Catholic online community, I regularly talk to my parish priest and I have read many sources about Catholicism on the Internet and if there is one thing that I am confident I know about it is salvation outside of the Church. Traditional teaching states that extra ecclesiam nulla salus, which means outside of the Church no one is saved. However, this is interpreted as meaning that those who deliberately reject the Church cannot be saved. Catholics, far more than most evangelical and free church Protestants, believe people of all faiths who try to follow with sincerity their consciences and what they believe to be true, will go the heaven by the Grace of God and the Sacrifice of Christ. In fact, a group who believed only baptised Catholics went to heaven have been heavily criticised and stopped from teaching in Catholic institutions in the last few decades.

So really, it doesnt matter how good of a person you are, it just matters that some priest blesses a little tap water and drops it on your head and you ask for forgiveness every once and a while.


One cannot ask for forgiveness with a deliberate intention to commit a sin again. And biblical support is not lacking for the claim that Christ's Sacrifice is necessary for the salvation of all.

Catholics believe that a combination of faith and good deeds is that which leads to salvation and entry into heaven. For, as Scripture says: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” [Ephesians 2:8] and then adds:
“You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?” [James 2:14]

Catholics look at the whole bible and come to the conclusion that, as it says in James 2:26, “faith without deeds is dead.” Many more Protestants ignore passages of Scripture and say deeds make no difference whatsoever. I’m not criticising all Protestants, but I’m saying that many Free Church Protestant groups have this much more so that in Catholicism, which directly teaches that faith and deeds, inspired by the Grace of God, are necessary for salvation.

non sinning (supposedly) people

Nobody said that priests and nuns are without sin. Scripture says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." [Romans 3:23]

tleast allow them to follow natures instinct and procreate and be with people of the opposite sex

Priests and religious sisters and brothers are set aside to serve God in a special way, and they are called by Him to a life of poverty, celibacy, service and self-giving. In the New Testament, in many places, the celibate life devoted entirely to God and His people is praised-

Matthew 19:10-12: "The disciples said to Him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.” Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”"

Marriage is a blessing from God and a Sacrament, but some are called to serve God in other ways.

It causes so much corruption in the religion

In fact, celibacy is only a requirement for priests in the Latin Rite and Protestant ministers who convert and become Catholic priests remain married. It cannot be proven, I believe, that celibacy leads to molestation or decline in priests. Molestation is a horrific scandal and I fully support the immediate sacking and handing over to the authorities of priests proven to have committed this heinous crimes.

However, it is unreasonable and not supported by fact to suggest that vows of celibacy lead to this. It has not been the case always (or even for most of the time), everywhere (or even most places), and certainly for not for everyone (or even most) that celibacy has lead to corruption and sexual abuse. Think of the millions who have taken vows of celibacy in the Catholic Church over the last 2000 years. Even with the lack of recording of good people and the emphasis on evil, the cases of abuse are a tiny percentage, as the percentage of people in society who are not ordained or relgious brothers or sisters but commit rape and abuse is tiny.

While its been said that some eastern rites allow marriage, most of the catholic rites do not.

The Eastern Rites, distinct from the Eastern Orthodox, are Catholic. Latin Rite is the Rite that enforces priestly celibacy and this Rite is no more Catholic than the Eastern Rites are.

I just felt it neccesary to point out the negative aspects of catholicism since you only told the good stuff. If you're going to tell the truth, especially if your goal is to clear up misconceptions and create a better understanding, its important to tell the entire truth instead of only the good parts.

I feel I have now addressed most of the issues you raised, showing that many in my opinion are in fact misconceptions themselves.

Otherwise, good article.

Thank you.

I appreciate you asking questions and I hope you feel you have got suffient answers. Please feel free to ask any more questions you like.

I was speaking mostly based upon personal experience, as I said, I too am catholic and my fathers side of the family is crazy religious. I went to catholic school and have been through the pains of trying to organize a catholic funeral, and heard of the trials my mother went through when trying to marry my father in a catholic church. She was previously married, and that marriage was as valid as any. And they still made her go through everything they make you do, and they refused to recognize her previous marriage although it was a valid marriage.

Also, have you noticed at all driving by catholic cemetaries, particularly older ones that some graves have fences around them, inside the cemetary, or some are outside the main cemetary with fences around them? These are unbaptized babies, and suicides. This is learned from school. They are allowed Catholic Burials, and Catholic Services, but they cannot be burried in the cemetary. Now a lot of cemetaries are lax on this, but a lot are not as well.

As for the eastern thing, I was saying the eastern rites of the catholic church. I wasnt confusing anything, or saying any other rite was more catholic than any other or anything like that.

Like I said these a personal experiences and while possibly contrary to church teachings, or not in the bible, they DO happen. They have happened, in more than one church so its just not around here. Ive looked up a lot of these things and they happen more than you think. So regardless of whether it is typical practice, or rare practise, or supposedly contrary to church teachings, these are done in the catholic religion. All I was trying to do was point on the negative aspects, however, seeing as you're apparently a devout catholic, and a practising one as well I can see how you can interpret these to not be bad or wrong. I mean, why would someone practice a religion if they thought it had a lot of things wrong with it?? I just figured for everyone elses sake, they should also get to know the other side, and decide for themselves whether its right or wrong.

Originally posted by LittleBit@May 21 2005, 12:57 AM
All I was trying to do was point on the negative aspects, however, seeing as you're apparently a devout catholic, and a practising one as well I can see how you can interpret these to not be bad or wrong. I mean, why would someone practice a religion if they thought it had a lot of things wrong with it?? I just figured for everyone elses sake, they should also get to know the other side, and decide for themselves whether its right or wrong.

I wasn't criticising you...you have every right to present your experience with the Faith, and I see that this is your personal expericence. I was merely trying to point out the teaching on these matters. I do realise that there are some bad practices that occur, and some of these have been endorsed by Catholics on the whole.

Pax

Originally posted by Robbie+Jun 10 2005, 08:56 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-LittleBit

@May 21 2005, 12:57 AM
All I was trying to do was point on the negative aspects, however, seeing as you&#39;re apparently a devout catholic, and a practising one as well I can see how you can interpret these to not be bad or wrong. I mean, why would someone practice a religion if they thought it had a lot of things wrong with it?? I just figured for everyone elses sake, they should also get to know the other side, and decide for themselves whether its right or wrong.

I wasn&#39;t criticising you...you have every right to present your experience with the Faith, and I see that this is your personal expericence. I was merely trying to point out the teaching on these matters. I do realise that there are some bad practices that occur, and some of these have been endorsed by Catholics on the whole.

Pax

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All I know is...alot of Catholic so called {holy men} have molested alot of children.Now what does that tell you about the Catholic Church?

That a few bad apples ruin it for everyone else?

Originally posted by Edward@Jun 13 2005, 10:02 AM
All I know is...alot of Catholic so called {holy men} have molested alot of children.Now what does that tell you about the Catholic Church?

It doesn&#39;t tell you anything whatsoever about the Catholic Faith, it tells you something about those men who commited those atrocities and those who abetted them by covering it up and putting other people at risk irresponsibly.