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Reply With QuoteBoooo thread necromancy.
Amputees, Christian or not do not disprove the fundamentals of Christianity dude. Like Greaser said, one could simply turn your supposition about no legs = bad around completely. 'Hey, the dude with no legs walked around not caring about his or anybody else's life but when he lost his legs he realised the error of his ways and became a good christian ' etc... These sorts of things will never work dude. Yup, there are plenty of wars, famines, droughts and evil acts in the world but you can make them all part of God's master-plan with just the right amount of faith.
Dude, that's not how the Bible came about. The stories contained in the Bible are part of an oral history/tradition which would have been passed down for years. We've all played 'chinese whispers' though so you don't need an over-active imagination to come to the conclusion that some of the key details/facts will have been lost along the way (with a few embellishments thrown in for good measure). Writing wasn't a new thing 2000 years ago or even 4000 years ago, it's just that education wasn't exactly widespread.With offending as few people as possible, i believe the bible, both old and new testament, was a story. Just a story. A story to entertain people. Writing was a fairly new invention at the time, people were exploring the possibilities and writing the first thing that came to mind. What did people think of back then? Most likely, their existence, like people STILL do today.
I'm not a Christian by any means whatsoever but if you're going to criticise something then you need to know some of the facts because otherwise you're talking as much rubbish as The Pope.
Boooo thread necromancy.
historically and scientifically the bible is inaccurate. It is a story about God's relationship with his people. different events will have changed during the retelling of it. Some things will have been embellished. It can be a good read. To a christian, the only important thing about it, and the only thing that needs to be true, is the path to salvation.
True beauty is an exchange, not an observation. - Lucid Rog
Originally Posted by Brewtality
That's typical for anyone who is defending a global majority consensus to pull the ignorance card out...
But, I know very well about Christianity as well as the history of written communication. Obviously amputees alone don't disprove Christianity. That's not what I'm saying. Obviously your not to keen on pulling main details from text. The main idea of what i was getting at was in a situation, an amputee was praying to "God" for him to get well. And by well, i mean get his legs back. No matter how much he prayed, he won't get his legs back. The Bible says so many times that prayer is the answer to any problem, more or less.
For example, in Matthew 21:21 Jesus says:
- I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
Jesus says something similar in Matthew 7:7:To grasp anything out of that text, pray and you will receive.
- Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
So why wouldn't the amputee receive?
And to whoever said its god's plan for everything to happen, i can explain for you as well. God's plan is the go-to defense when in a religious debate. Period. You know it. I know it. But, supposedly God's Plan includes the exact second of our birth and the exact second of our death.
This passage is from Psalms 139:16
"You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!"
Feel free to check all of these excerpts. They are accurate.
Using that concept, God planning each day of a persons life, God wants us to abort babies. They are stolen the right of life because of an immature couple. Don't get me wrong I'm pro-choice but that's a different topic. But if God controls the exact time of birth and death, then God is responsible for the millions of babies aborted each year. So, any Christian fighting abortion is missing the point. If God wants the babies to be aborted, their effort to counteract that is futile because god is the all-knowing ruler. So explain the large Christian opposition to abortion.
Mind you that i don't only oppose Christianity. I am an Agnostic towards, Buddhism, Muslims, Jews, what have you. Writing wasn't exactly widespread during the development of any of these religions. The printing press wasn't developed until the Renaissance. So, all copies of religious texts must have been either orally presented or copied by hand. To copy the whole Bible, Koran, what ever suits your fancy is a extremely large task. The current meaning of the texts must have been skewed from the original ones.
If I am so ignorant and don't have my facts straight. Explain to me how the amputees prayers aren't answered. Or how the Bible states indirectly that God is solely responsible for every abortion. Or how common sense clearly shows that the texts won't be word for word accurate. =]
Last edited by thatsstupid95; 08-13-2009 at 09:59 PM.
God's plan and god's desire is that we have free will, therefore everything is part of Gods plan, because everything is a creation of our own free will.
As for amuptees, your thoughts are limited only to that of our human conciousness and what that wants or needs, not the spirit and soul. If you're going to limit your thoughts to human conciousness, you may as well not bother trying to contemplate God.
Part 1
There once was a soul who knew itself to be the light.
This was a new soul and so, anxious for experience. "I am the light" it said. "I am the light"
Yet all the knowing of it and all the saying of it, could not substitute for the experience of it. And in the realm from which this soul emerged, there was nothing but the light. Every soul was grand and every soul was magnificent and every soul shone with the brilliance of God's awesome light. So the little soul was as a candle in the sun.
In the midst of the grandest light, of which it was part, it could not see itself, nor experience itself as Who and What it really is. Now it came to pass that this soul yearned and yearned to know itself. So great was it's yearning that God one day said, "Do you know little one, what you must do to satisfy this yearning of yours?"
"Oh, what, God? What? I'll do anything!" the little soul said. "You must separate yourself from the rest of us" God answered, "and then you must call upon yourself the darkness" "What is the darkness, o Holy One?" the little soul asked.
"That which you are not" God replied and the soul understood. And so this the soul did, removing itself from the ' All ' going even unto another realm. And in this realm the soul had the power to call into it's experience all sorts of darkness. And this it did. Yet in the midst of all the darkness did it cry out, "Father, Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" God replied: "Even has have you, in your blackest times. Yet I have never forsaken you, but stand by you always, ready to remind you of Who You Really Are; ready always ready, to call you home.
Therefore be a light unto the darkness and curse it not. And forget not who you are in the moment of your encirclement by that which you are not. But do praise to the creation even as you seek to change it. And know that what you do in the time of your greatest trial can be your greatest triumph. For the experience you create is a statement of Who You Are - and Who You Want to Be.
Part 2
God said to the little soul, "You may choose to be any Part of God you wish to be. You are absolute divinity experiencing itself. What aspect of divinity do you now wish to experience as You?"
"You mean I have a choice", asked the little soul. God answered, "Yes. You may choose to experience any aspect of divinity in, as and through you."
"Okay," said the little soul, "then I choose forgiveness. I want to experience myself as that aspect of God called complete forgiveness." Well this created a little challenge, as you can imagine. There was no one to forgive. All God had created was perfection and love.
"No one to forgive?" asked the little soul, somewhat incredulously. "No one," God repeated. "Look around you. Do you see any souls less than perfect, less wonderful than you?" At this the little soul twirled around and was surprised to see himself surrounded by all the souls in heaven. They had come from far and wide throughout the kingdom, because they heard that the little soul was having an extraordinary conversation with God.
"I see none less perfect than I!" the little soul exclaimed. "Who, then, shall I have to forgive?"
Just then another soul stepped forward from the crowd. "You may forgive me" said this friendly soul "For what?" the little soul asked. " I will come into your next physical lifetime and do something for you to forgive," replied the friendly soul. "But what? What could you, a being of such perfect light do to make me want to forgive you?" the little soul wanted to know. "Oh," smiled the friendly soul, "I'm sure we can think of something." "But why would you want to do this?"
The little soul could not figure out why a being of such perfection would want to slow down it's vibration so much that it could do something 'bad'. "Simple," the friendly soul explained, "I would do it because I love you. You want to experience yourself as forgiving, don't you? Besides you've done the same for me." "I have?" asked the little soul. "Of course, don't you remember?
We've been All Of it, you and I. We've been the Up and the Down of it, and the Left and the Right of it. We've been the Here and the There of it, and the Now and the Then of it. We've been the Big and the Small of it, the Male and the Female of it and the Good and the Bad of it. We've been the All of it." "And we've done it by agreement, so that each of us might experience ourselves as the grandest part of God. For we have understood that... 'In the absence of that which You Are Not, that which you Are, is Not'.
'In the absence of cold you cannot be warm, in the absence of sad you cannot be happy. Without a thing called evil, the experience you call good cannot exist'. 'If you choose to be a thing, something or someone opposite to that has to show up somewhere in your universe to make that possible.' " The friendly soul then explained that those people are God's Special Angels and these conditions God's Gifts.
"I ask only one thing in return," the friendly soul declared. "Anything, Anything," the little soul cried. He was excited now to know that he could experience every divine aspect of God. He understood now, The Plan. "In the moment that I strike you and smite you," said the friendly soul, "in the moment that I do the worst to you that you could ever imagine - in that self same moment...remember Who I Really Am." "Oh, I wont forget!" promised the little soul. "I will see you in the perfection with which I hold you now, and I will remember Who You Are, always."
Last weekend was 100 years since the death of Mary MacKillop, is on the way to becoming Australia's first canonised Saint. There was a quote that i read from her that said something like "i rejoice God whenever my prayers are answered, as I know his Will is being done, and I rejoice God whenever my prayers are unanswered, as I know God's will is being done".
The whole answering prayers thing is interesting, because sometimes the answer you get is 'No', or "not right now". It doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.
Phrogget, that was really powerful. I loved reading it.
I hope all of you who believe this realize what a massive contradiction this is.
We have free will.
But God has a plan, and shit is going according to God's plan.
Because God is omniscient and knows what you're going to do.
But we have free will, man.
Wait, what?
So basically, God creates people with the full knowledge that they're going to hell. Oh but "no that's not right" you say? People choose their own paths? So God can't be omniscient then. If he is omniscient, than he's just an asshole.
Also just to be a troll, God can't be omniscient AND omnipotent. It's a paradox. If he knows the future than he wouldn't possess the omnipotence to change it. If he chooses to change it then he wouldn't have been omniscient. What the fuck Christianity.
Sorry I didn't even read the whole topic.
Last edited by Ghetto Onion; 08-14-2009 at 02:57 PM.
"The deepest definition of youth is life as yet untouched by tragedy."
-Alfred North Whitehead
"Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world."
-Arthur Schopenhauer
seriously beat me to the punch.
before i even read your post ghetto onion i was thinking that. well the contradiction part.
the paradox thing is completely true and watch how quickly they will respond with, your ignorant, or your being closed minded, or its gods will.
God knows what can, and has happened. because time doesn't exist and is a construct of the human mind. everything that can possibly happened has already happened and is happening right now. Meaning you've done everything, and can choose anything.
Well if we're going to argue that way than let's just throw logic and reasoning completely out of the window. Oh wait, it's impossible to argue religion logically. Please re-read your argument, it makes zero sense. Zero. That's like... what stoners pull out as some revolutionary thought because it's both paradoxical yet still is supposed to make sense because it somehow "explains" something unexplainable without ever actually explaining shit.
Time doesn't exist? Um what? Maybe I don't have any tact in religious arguments but wtf, I seriously cannot stand it when people state their perspective on their particular space dad as fact. Stating time doesn't exist so nonchalantly as though this is just some commonly accepted viewpoint among the religious, makes me see red.
I dont know, I think i'd rather believe in Santa Clause than forfeit my most valued asset on earth: thinking.
Last edited by Ghetto Onion; 08-15-2009 at 05:49 AM.
Exactly... Of course it's impossible to argue religion logically. So, why ask for reasons, why not just accept peoples dumb beliefs for what they are and quit yo jibber jabber.
I assumed the reader could understand they were beliefs, stating things as fact, when in a disscussion about beliefs is just far easier than having to put 'I believe' at the beggining of every sentance, especially when it may not be specifically something I believe, but just lines of thinking that I have heard. The whole disscussions about beliefs, you know they are beliefs.Time doesn't exist? Um what? Maybe I don't have any tact in religious arguments but wtf, I seriously cannot stand it when people state their perspective on their particular space dad as fact. Stating time doesn't exist so nonchalantly as though this is just some commonly accepted viewpoint among the religious, makes me see red.
Dismissing anything you can't get your head around doesn't necessarily involve thinking.I dont know, I think i'd rather believe in Santa Clause than forfeit my most valued asset on earth: thinking.
Last edited by phrogget; 08-15-2009 at 11:01 AM.
well if you think about it...hope all of you who believe this realize what a massive contradiction this is.
We have free will.
But God has a plan, and shit is going according to God's plan.
Because God is omniscient and knows what you're going to do.
But we have free will, man.
Wait, what?
Its quite simple.
God has a plan. The end conclusion. Judgement.
We have free will in the sense that we can choose to take X rd. or Y rd. or even Z rd.
At the same time. No matter Which rd. i choose to take. I will inevitably reach the same conclusion.
The whole omniscient thing....for me its like the friend who knows sometihng that i dont...but he thinks its best for me to find out on my own. He doesnt want to spoil the suprise.
Of course....thats just my belief.
I'm at a weird place right now where "God's plan" makes me extremely angry. But maybe that's something I should post in a different topic.
10:21 PM [TheMadCatter] I got free shipping, 20 dollars off, and a free tote bag12:26 AM [smirk] i think blended margaritas taste good sometimes(11:44:55 PM) Onionman: I was watching oprah...Personman says (3:16 AM):So I'm not girl like enough for you?
We can nit-pick at each others' grammar and debating tact but Phrogget, you are extremely close-minded in your beliefs. Ghetto Onion, same thing but on the other end of the spectrum. Neither of you have even contemplated the possibility of the other's argument to be true. To be honest though, as an open-minded agnostic, i agree more with Ghetto Onion. Phrogget, you've been speaking yourself in circles the whole time, with no real legit outcome to anything you say.
So in other words, "Of course we can't explain why we are here. So why bother us with the questions? Just follow the status quo and don't question tradition, even though scientific proof shows contrary to the status quo."Exactly... Of course it's impossible to argue religion logically. So, why ask for reasons, why not just accept peoples dumb beliefs for what they are and quit yo jibber jabber.
... When flipped into something that's not paradoxical. It seems like a pretty contradictory thing, huh?
Dismissing and disagreeing are two different things, my friend.Dismissing anything you can't get your head around doesn't necessarily involve thinking.
Dismissing is completely ridding yourself of the thought without the slightest analyzation of it.
Disagreeing is looking at it and saying, "That's not right, it doesn't quite match up"
i've disagreed with almost everything you said because you end all of your almost valid points with mild put-downs that pretty much drain any intellect and validity I would have seen in your statement . Not to mention your denouncment of the analytical process, the possibility of there being a scientific world instead of an theistic creation, and most of all the entire theory of time and space. =]
Last edited by thatsstupid95; 08-16-2009 at 02:09 AM.
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